ARS Restoration Services: Ice Dams
Male Speaker 1: Well, just quickly for those that don’t know about ARS. We’re an emergency-responding restoration service provide relief as quick as possible to hopefully limit the amount of damage that property owners undertake. I’m going to pass it over to Rick and we’re going to start going right into the ice dam presentation.
Rick: How are you doing, everybody? Rick Perini from the ARS and it’s a pleasure to here. Thank you for having us here today. Just want a quick question to start off. How many of you had ice dams last year? So, I say a good majority of you. I would say that was the worst winter. I’m 70 years old and that was the worst. I used to be in the construction business for 42 years before I joined ARS. That was definitely the worst winter I personally ever experienced, and I think I’ve heard that comment many times since last year. Luckily this year, we’ve been so far knock on wood we’ve still been pretty lucky and hopefully, it will stay that way.
Tonight I’m going to just talk to you quickly about ice dams, give you a little history, and a little bit of some guidance on how you can prevent them in some cases and also about snow removal and what you should do safely and how you should handle it. That [unintelligible 0:01:36].
Doug: Where are you aimed at?
Rick: I don’t know.
Rich: A lot of buttons [unintelligible 0:01:42].
Male Speaker 1: We’re not a technology-based company [laughter].
Rick: This should be on.
Rich: Yeah. Yes, this button here. It’s the button.
Rick: Sorry. What is an ice dam? An ice dam is basically a ridge that forms at the edge of your roof. The top part of your roof is the hottest part of your roof and the edge of your roof obviously is the coldest part. The water that packs up behind a dam can leak into a home and cause damage to walls, ceiling, insulation in other areas. Right here, you got a cross-section of the roof, all right. In this particular case, there’s no ridge vent. There’s a lot of snow built up. At the end of the day when the sun goes down, this edge of the roof gets extremely cold. This part of the roof on the top stays warm pretty traditionally.
If I took a thermal camera and went up into an attic of any home or residence, I would find that the heat up here is probably a magnitude of 10 times what it is down here. As this thermal cycling goes on, this trapped water turns into an ice dam and the continual repetition of that over time causes that ice dam to grow up your roof. As you see here, we have a few pictures as we go along that will now come along and say talk about what causes an ice dam.
Basically, what causes the ice dam is the fact that there is too much heat typically in an attic. The heat differential, the rule of thumb in the industry is there should be no more than a 10-degree difference from the inside, the unconditioned air in your attic and the outside temperature. For example, if outside, it’s 30 degrees, inside your attic it should be no more than 40 degrees. This is just a general rule of thumb that’s used in the industry to measure the effectiveness of heat and thermal conduction in the home.
When that happens, ice dams form on the roof when there is snow. If there is no snow on your roof, ice dams will not form, so the key to it obviously is to get the snow off your roof as soon as you can safely of course. But I don’t mean 1 inch or 2 inches. What I’m saying is if we get repetitive storms and you get 2 inches, then you get another 2 inches, another 2 inches, now you have up to 6 inches. You want to get that snow off the edge of that roof as fast as you can safely and we go into this a little further. I’ll tell you some of the safer ways to do that.
The ice dam grows as it’s feed by the melting snow above it like I showed you in the diagram initially. It will limit itself to the portions of the roof that on average are below 30 degrees or freezing and like I said to you that thermal cycle during a normal day, the sun is up. It’s heating your roof. The warmest part is on the top. It starts melting down towards the cooler part. In the afternoon, 3:30, 4 o’clock, it starts getting dark, the sun goes down. Now your roof is starting to get cold and it’s going to freeze now.
What causes different roof surface temperatures? Since most ice dams form at the edge of the roof, there is obviously a heat source warming the roof at some other point. This heat is primarily coming from the house. In rare instances, it’s solar heat gained that may cause temperature differences, but I found in the industry that’s not very normal.
Heat comes and travels through the house and roof surface in three ways. They do it through conduction, convection, and radiation.
Conduction is heat that travels through a solid. A good example of this is a cast-iron frying pan. The heat moves from the bottom of the pan to the handle by conduction.
If you put your hand on the frying pan, the heat will reach it by the other two methods. The air right above the frying pan is heated as it rises. The rising air carries energy to heat your hand. This is called convection.
In addition, heat is transferred from the hot pan to your hand by electromagnetic waves and that’s called radiation. Another example of radiation is sitting outside in a bright sunny day. They feel the heat from the sun and that’s being transferred to you by radiation, which is the same way it’s done to your roof.
The top surface of the insulation is warmer than the other surroundings and the attic. Therefore, the air just above the insulation is heated and rises, carrying heat by convection to the roof. The higher temperatures in the insulation’s top surface in your attic compared to the roof sheathing transfers heat outward by radiation.
So if your heat underneath your conditioned space like your living room or your bedroom. Let’s say you’re on the second floor, you have insulation if that’s the way it is on the floor of your attic, that heat stays pretty much contained within that heat what they call conditioned space, which would be your bedroom on the second floor, for example. Above that insulation, there shouldn’t be too much heat escaping from that conditioned space, above your insulation. If you go into insulation as a technology for energy efficiency in the home especially in your attic, the rule of thumb right now in the industry and especially anybody that knows about the ENERGY STAR Programs and so forth is to add more insulation to your attic. So if you have 10 inches now, put 20. If you have 20, put 40, so it’s gone from an R-30 or an R-38 requirement in the State Energy Code to now it’s gone to R-52. By next year, it’s going to go to R-76, which is 30 inches of insulation.
Now that can be accomplished a lot of different ways. You can do it with spray insulation, which is wet paper product. You can do it with foam, which is a product called Icynene, which is very expensive but supposedly the best, or you can do it with fiberglass. There’s a lot of ways to do that to increase the energy efficiency in your home.
All of these things are great, as long as you don’t allow any heat to escape from your conditioned space into your attic, and I’m just going to go over that right now.
What causes different roof surface temperatures? We talked about ways or things that are escaping from the conditioned space into your home. A lot of times, it comes from plumbing chassis open, electrical lines coming up from your conditioned space into your attic; sometimes the electricians drill a hole this big, the wire comes up through it, so there’s an inch or three-quarters of an inch all the way around it. If I go in with my thermal camera, I can see the red and orange coming right up from there. That’s heat being transferred right up through your conditioned space into your attic, which is not good because it’s heating the attic, which is not a good thing. It comes from air conditioning ducts, heat ducts that are un-insulated in your attic.
That heat, another bad thing about them is if there are bathroom vents or kitchen vents that are not done properly, moisture is also part of this. Not only do you get a heat problem, but you get a moisture problem, which causes the M word, which nobody likes to talk about, which is mold.
This photograph shows a single-story house with an ice dam, and you can see here, this area right in here has a heat problem. This area right here that’s holding the snow, yes you’ve got some icicles forming on your roof edge, but this right here is a warning sign that there is something wrong in that area. There is heat escaping to that point that’s warmer than the rest of the roof.
This profile here, there’s very little snow left on the roof and at it edges is both an ice dam and a beautiful row of icicles. Again, if you look at up here, the snow is gone. But what happened before they got the snow up, this end froze. So in my opinion, they didn’t get it off quick enough because once they got it off the roof, this is just a melting process, that is why you see all these longer icicles. It means that that’s a melting process that got down but it didn’t have time to thermally melt away.
This property has several incompatible climate-related design problems including channeling of the snow and ice from two portions and a large main roof, the intersecting rooflines, and trapping snow and ice between the sidewalls of the house and sidewalls of the dormer.
I love architects. This looks beautiful. You have the little dormers. You have insets. You have all the stuff. It looks great architecturally. Those are ice dams waiting to happen. All those areas, you will find ice dams at some point, guaranteed. Excuse me.
Male Audience 1: [unintelligible 0:10:58].
Rick: I guess so. I just wanted to get back to that slide one second. The other thing, this right here – Jeez! It doesn’t like me. Here we go. I wanted to – this area right in here, all these areas here, no this and this and this, this last winter, I probably personally did 400 jobs for estimates and reviews. I’m licensed. I’m a professional engineer. Also, I’m structural and civil in 32 states in the United States. I saw many, many of those that cause damage because of the weight of the snow specifically the ice and people don’t realize how heavy ice is when it’s up on their roof.
If you have an older home, I suggest that you seriously if you have conditions like this especially in the nice old Queens and the Victorians, you look at those areas. Do something whatever you can to make sure that snow gets off that roof because the weight of it over time will start to damage that roof structure and especially the roof shingles themselves. So that’s one area that I like to point out that it’s just an ice dam waiting to happen and it’s going to happen and if it happens enough or more serious like it did last year, it could cause serious structural damage.
How can I remove an existing ice dam? Properly removing an ice dam can be quite dangerous if you don’t know how. In the past some members of the media — and I’ve seen it in newspaper articles, I saw it in magazines, I’ve seen it on TV — suggested pulling the gutters off your house is going to solve everything and that’s a lot of malarkey. That’s not true. It probably causes more problems than what they say it’s going to eliminate. It’s very well intended but it’s not correct.
Probably 3 years ago, we saw preponderance of this happening where people are just ripping their gutters off and saying that this is going to free the water. The water is just going to come off the edge of the house, but what it started causing was serious water problems within the foundations of the house. It started eroding the foundations. It started causing water damage that they never had before. People lived in homes 30 and 40 years never had water problems. Now they had water problems. Again it’s because basic rule of thumb — I was in construction for 42 years in my own business – the rule of thumb when you’re building a home or you’re buying and remodeling a place is get the water away from your house. It’s not put the water right next to your house.
Again common sense: keep the water running away from your house, however you can do that.
When you remove – dealing with ice dams again, the immediate action, get the snow off the roof. You do it safely. Snow rakes, they’re fantastic. Some of the new ones that are out right now with the telescoping, you can get up to 21 to 22 feet. That’s pretty good from the ground, safely without taking your back out. The problem is you got to buy in the spring. Don’t buy them in the fall or the winter because they’re not available. So that’s one of the safest ways to do it.
Do not get up on a ladder and do it yourself! Please don’t do that. There is no ice dam in the world worth you breaking your leg or going to the hospital or even worse dying over. Please don’t ever do that!
If you have a question, if you have problems, usually reputable roofing contractors will come out. If you’re not able to get it or it’s so severe, they’ll come out and get the ice and snow off your roof in an emergency but please don’t go up on a roof yourself.
We talked about some quick things you can do. Safely also is if you have the ability to get hot water to a hose, and you’re up on the second floor and you got a window and your ice dam is right down there. You can run hot water just to make – all you want to do is make a break in that ice dam so you get a trough that gets through. There’s an exit point for that water.
It’s like at the end of this, I’m going to show you something called an ice sock. Basically, what it is taking a woman’s nylon. You cut the legs off. You put calcium chloride and then tie the end off and you make like a little pouch and you put that – I recommend doing it November. You put it in your gutter about 8 inches away from your downspout/leader from inside your gutter and if you have areas like we talked about before in those areas where the roofs and peaks and valleys are in your roofline, if you lay them in there, the water – the calcium chloride will not activate with just normal rainwater. It will activate when it’s cold and then when the cold and water heats it, that’s when it will all start melting ice. It will stay up there as long as you don’t have a serious storm, too many in a row, you will have to replenish it after a while, but it will stay up there for pretty much a normal winter in New England. It’s biodegradable. It won’t hurt your plants, and it doesn’t kill animals, so it’s a good thing, all right.
It’s very simple. It’s a calcium chloride that you throw down anyway the ice or snow. You put into it like I said women’s nylons. You cut them off, fill them, tie them in the end, and just lay them in your gutter that far from the edge of your downspout. Do it in November when there’s no snow, and there is no ice and the rainwater that goes through them will not get rid of the calcium chloride. It’s a good safety measure. I’ve done this now 8 years and I’ve had many people come back to me, going, “You know, when you told me about that, I thought you were full of baloney.”
I said, “I tried it. It worked.” Well, I’m not saying it’s going to work for everybody, but it’s a good something to try that’s easy and it’s simple.
Female Audience 1: How far from your downspout?
Rick: I’m sorry?
Female Audience 1: How far from your downspout?
Rick: About 8 inches from the downspout where the leader as it goes down. You just keep it a little bit away so there is some room for the water to come out.
Excessive heat, we talked about that. In an attic, I’ve got a few pictures here to show you. These are plumbing chassis that are wide open in a typical attic. This one over here is some HVAC drain lines. That’s metalbestos chimney flue. Here is some typical ductwork that’s laying up in an attic space. That’s all emitting heat, okay, and that’s one thing you don’t want to do. So this type of insulation on these ducts are called insulated flex duct, but that’s not very good. So you want to get some good insulated flex duct that has at least an R-8 factor, all right, and it’s not expensive. You can do it. You can have somebody do it, but these are just some one of the areas.
These open areas here, you fill them with fireproof insulation stop the heat from transferring into your attic. Same thing in areas like this, we’ve got penetrations. You want to seal those up with either a fire caulk or fire-based insulation.
We talked a little bit about what happens when you get moisture and heat up in your attic or in a combined area, and you’re going to get mold. Mold needs three things. It needs heat. It needs moisture. It needs food.
Food for mold is paper — anything paper-based, drywall on your walls, wood pulp that’s pulverized; so any product that has any wood pulp in it. sometimes you’ll see 2x4s or some framing lumber that’s got the black mold on it, it’s not mold in the wood. It’s mold on the pulp that’s coming out of it.
We talked about the ice sock.
I want to talk about insulation a little bit. One of the big things right now in the industry like I said is everybody is talking about energy conservation, windows, doors, ENERGY STAR Program, rebates, Mass Save. All of them are keyed for the same thing, and the biggest thing is insulation.
I will say to you again: there’s many ways to better insulate your attic. Please do that but please don’t forget what I said to you about heat entering the attic space. Look for the very obvious things that are generating heat from the conditioned space – exhaust ducts especially from the bathroom.
I’ve seen so many – I don’t know why people do that. They put them up in an attic and it looks like they had no idea how they were supposed to be doing in the first place. I’ve seen ductwork just come up to the attic and the exhaust just goes into the attic, which by the way is against state law. It has to be ducted to the outside.
Kitchen vents, the same way: they come up into the attic space from god knows where and they just blow into the attic, which is really bad because there they got grease and other things, fire problems.
One of the things when we did this initially I told you, R-38 is a state code right now. It is going to R-52. Actually effective January 1st, a new code just took effect this year, 2016. I believe it’s next year that you’re after, it’s going to go to be R-76, and again we’re talking about inches. So R-38 is roughly 12 inches; R-56 is roughly 18 to 20 inches, and R-72 is 24 to 30 inches of insulation in your attic. Pretty soon, that’s going to be required when you do a remodel not your existing home for example. But the more you can do to increase your R-value in your attic, the better off you’re going to be as far as ice dams, better control of utility costs in the house, and comfort.
[coughs] Excuse me. The other thing I noticed I just wanted to bring a point is anybody who has the gable roof, at the very top of your roof is a thing called ridge vent.
[coughs] Excuse me one second. Sorry.
That ridge vent is there for a reason. The typical house design has a soffit on each side of it, which is at the edge of your roof. It’s vented. The way that the house is designed is that from by convectional air movement, it’s going to be from the cooler air to the warmer air and come out all your vents, which is typically at the peak of your roof.
Many times, I see two things happen. One is there is no ridge vent, or two that there is a ridge vents and there are soffit vents, but they’re blocked with insulation. So when you go into the home and you look in your attic, make sure the insulation isn’t stuffed all the way down, covering your soffit vents. Because that way, there’s not going to be any airflow, which is the proper way to vent your attic, so that you can keep the temperature, like I said, remember the 10 percent or the 10-degree rule, 10 degrees warmer in your attic than it is outside. That’s the general rule of thumb.
If you open your attic, pull down or you’re going into your attic space and it hits you in the face with hot air, which I’m sure it’s happened to me many times. It may have happened to you, guys. If you feel that, there’s something wrong. Your attic is way too warm. Again, 10 degrees is the general rule of thumb in the industry.
Air leakage, we talked about wire penetrations and plumbing chassis, ceiling lights – that’s the other thing – recessed lights, one of the worst culprits. People love them and when they remodel, typically they do is they say you know, “I hate lamps all over the place. I like to have some nice recessed light.” If you go into the attic and I took my thermal camera, I’ll see all those spots, all those hot spots where the heat is just being generated from the unit itself from the fixture.
The way you want to do is it comes to one is called an insulated fixture and one is called an uninsulated fixture. The insulated fixture means that it’s already got a contained top and it won’t radiate heat through to the attic. The un-insulated ones means you can’t put insulation right up against it. It will cause a fire, so you have to put a little box that make this little kit that goes over them, so you can insulate up and around them and not have a fire hazard, but those are areas you should look at also, any recessed lights.
Bathroom exhaust fans, we talked about.
Rich: So, Rick, if you pulled down that attic door and you get in the face with the hot air, that’s bad?
Rick: That’s not good.
Rich: But not as bad as getting hit in the face by that foldout ladder, right [laughter]?
Rick: Yeah, I’ve had that happen to me, too, or full of water. That’s even worse.
Rick: Yeah. I think we’re pretty close to the end. I’ll just try to go through this quickly to try to give you a little bit of education about ice dams. If there’s any questions, I’d be happy to try to answer them.
Rich: What are some of the other way – I’m going to go around with the microphone.
Rich: What are some other ways to ventilate it if you go up in your attic, you find out that the soffit does have insulation all over it and it’s not convenient to move that. Is there another way to ventilate the attic?
Rick: I would highly recommend that you to try to move that insulation away from the soffit, but there are things called turtle vents, gable vents. The turtle vent is the little round thing you see up on roofs. It looks like a little mushroom. It’s called a turtle vent. Some are just open; in other words, they have an insect screen on them, and they just allow natural convection. It’s just a way for the heat to escape the attic. Some are power-vented; in other words, they have actually power to them and they actually have a sensor that when the temperature in the attic gets at a certain height, then it turns on and it exhausts. [coughs] Excuse me.
The others are gable vents. On either end of your gables, you’ll see on the house, you’ll see this little rectangle with a grill on it. That’s a gable vent and again it’s a natural convection vent, so those are some ways you can vent your – yes?
Female Audience 2: Does ARS only come in after the fact that there is a problem or do you prevent it from coming with thermal cameras beforehand and tell us where there’s problems?
Rick: Typically, we come in. We’re an emergency response company, so we don’t typically go out and do proactively do this. What we’re usually asked to do since we’re on the provider list for probably every major insurance company that’s out there is we go in and investigate why it happened and we tell the insurance company why it happened and then we recommend how to fix it and then usually they ask us to fix it.
Female Audience 3: I’m going to go on from her question, which is who is there around that one could get to look at some —
Rick: I would recommend you call Mass Save.
Female Audience 3: Mass Save?
Rick: Mass Save. It’s free and it’s a service that’s offered to you, and you know it’s like every other program that they offer. Take advantage of it now because it could be in a year from now, it would be gone.
Female Audience 3: My other question had to do with the picture you had that showed the icicles and the ice.
Female Audience 3: How do you get that ice dam out because it’s frozen on there?
Rick: A couple of different ways. One way is to hire somebody to break those troughs and to slowly put the troughs in, which is either using the ice sock method that I talked to you about or you can buy the calcium chloride. These look like hockey pucks but again I want to tell you, you can only buy them in the spring, in the summer, but they’re just like a hockey puck, and it’s very easy. You can just tab your grandson or your nephew throw it on the roof and what it does is it sits there and as it activates, it will melt that ice right down and that’s all you want to do is make a trail through that ice, so that water can get away. This thing you want to stop is the continual buildup of freezing that water during the water, it gets thermally, it starts melting. You want it to get off your roof. You don’t want it to keep staying there and then buildup that ice dam further and further. Yes, sir.
Rich: We have a question.
Rick: I’m sorry.
Sandra: Actually, it’s something that is being promoted, and I wanted to know whether or not it has an impact when it comes to ice dams. All the solar energy that is being suggested as a great heat source, an energy source, etc. So does that have any impact at all when it comes to winter and ice dams and how do you get around all those wonderful —
Rick: Okay, first of all, it is a heat source, and if you notice on solar panel installations, the piping is all exposed, so that is actually a good thing as far as ice not building up there. The thing that I’d notice on some of them is that they lay them, it’s something to do with the direction of the sun hitting the roof and they position them in a certain way. You get the optimum performance out of the solar panel. What I’ve noticed though is once it lay really flat on the roofs, they do build up ice around the edges because those aren’t warm. It’s just that the bottom where the piping comes through. So in general, I haven’t seen a problem with them. It’s actually been a good thing.
Rich: I’m coming to Andy and Peter next.
Male Audience 2: Just a point concerning a lot of contractors that are “roofing contractors” put a ridge vent up on the roof and you probably have seen it as have I where the ridge vent actually isn’t open.
Andy: And so they lay them up in there and they’ll tell you that they did soffit vents and ridge vents. It’s a really easy thing for homeowners, landlords to check just by going up into the attic and looking to see if you see the backside of that vent, there should be an opening. The board should be cut back. If it’s not, it’s a great vent, but it’s not doing a darn thing.
Andy: No air will escape.
Rick: Right. What he’s saying is if you have a roof that had no ridge vent originally, what they have to do is cut like a 2-1/2 inches down each side, so they cut off that little peak where the roof joins. They set the new ridge vent into that and when you look in your attic, you’ll look at. They have an insect screen. It’s not. It’s called a covered vent. It’s the ones that I’m familiar with, so those get set into that and tacked in place and the air flow comes up through that new cut that they put in and took off the top of your roof and that air convectionally comes out and then they shingle over that. So when you look at a roofline, you see a thing go up, bump over like that and down; that means that that’s a ridge vent, that somebody’s cut it. But you’re correct. When you go up in the attic and look, you should be able to see outside. You should see daylight.
Male Audience 2: How about the wires, those heated wires that people put on the ridge vent?
Rick: Here’s my only – we went to many ice dams that had many heated wires on them. What happens is they get overwhelmed. Well, a couple of – let me go from A to B. One, they’re supposed to either be on a sensor, which is a temperature sensor, or they’re supposed to be on a daylight light sensor; in other words, when it starts getting dark, they’re supposed to turn on. They’re also supposed to be on a separate A/C GFI circuit. First of all, I see many that are not on a GFI circuit, which is not safe. Two, a lot of them have like a switch, so the homeowner says, “Oh, I better turn this on. It’s cold out and I see some ice forming,” So he puts the switch on. Then he remembers Saturday morning, “Oh, gosh! I had the switch on.” Then he goes and turns it off. So, he’s had the switch on for three days, day and night, and it burns out eventually. So they should be on timers and – I don’t know what to tell you.
I don’t think there are as great a panacea to this as everybody says they are, thinks they are. One of the things that always bothered me is if you look at the packaging on the cable, the de-icing cable, and you look at where it says life expectancy like on a light bulb like the new ones you see now, it’s 20,000 hours on new LED bulbs. If you look on the packaging for that cable, it says 2,000-hour life. Two thousand hours goes by pretty quick, so what does that say? Every 5 years you got to replace it? So I just would be cautious about it. I don’t think that’s a —
Male Audience 3: [unintelligible 0:32:36].
Rick: Yeah, they work except like last winter they got overwhelmed. They couldn’t keep up.
Rich: It’s also if you have to have that, it sounds like if you have an underlying temperature issue that you’re trying to solve with the wires instead of going about the insulation or the ventilation, is that right?
Rick: Yes, that’s right.
Peter: I have researched roof rakes a lot, and I’ve never seen one that you just mentioned. Do you have any recommendations as to – I know that’s —
Rick: Are you guys familiar with Grainger, the supply house?
Rick: Grainger sells one also. It’s a telescoping heavy-duty aluminum one. It telescopes to I think 20 feet and it’s got a nice blade on it that’s pretty tough. There’s a lot of them out there that have aluminum pole but they have like a hard plastic little shovel thing on it.
Rick: Those don’t work at all. They break pretty easy.
Rich: All right, so you rake the snow off the roof, and then —
Rich: And the trouble with that is now you have a bunch of snow here in your foundation like you mentioned before?
Rick: No. I’d rather have them on the ground because besides the snow you just put off your roof, you got all this stuff that’s on your lawn and everything else. It’s minor compared to having water dripping straight down on your foundation all the time.
Rich: Okay, but if you’re not sure what to do with the snow, we can get the address for Doug’s neighbor and we can cart it over her driveway [laughter].
Rick: [laughter] That’s true.
Rich: All right. This will be the last question and we have to move on.
Male Audience 3: All right, you mentioned the recessed lighting and everybody has used recessed lighting in the new construction nowadays.
Male Audience 3: Is it mandatory for the recessed lighting now to be insulated?
Male Audience 3: It is? Okay.
Rick: It’s part of the energy code, and there’s two types out there. There is an IC and non-IC, and that’s the one. IC stands for insulation. I think most of them they sell both because you have a remodeling. You have a remodeling version and you have a new work version. Also a lot of attics today in the new construction, they’re not putting the insulation on the floor. They’re putting it in the roof rafters and they’re using a sprayed insulation. It’s a closed-cell and open-cell product called Icynene, which is very, very tight. It’s very good. It’s expandable foam. It’s supposedly the best. It’s also the most expensive. I personally like it in some applications but others I don’t.
I grew up in a house in Connecticut with the windows closed and the curtains pulled. At night, I just sleep in my bed and I could feel the wind blow through my house, okay. I never had colds. I was never out sick for a long time, nothing. Today, it seems like everybody has got an allergy of some kind – colds, asthma, breathing problems. I swear it’s because houses are just so tight now, you know. Everything is tightened up. Don’t let any air in and I think we need some more fresh more fresh air coming through our homes honestly for that part of it anyway.
Sandra: So that’s where [unintelligible 0:35:33] [laughter].
Rick: Well, thank you again for having us here and it’s a pleasure. Thank you very much.
Rich: Thank you [applause].